MYM - The (not so) Perfect Blend

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17th September 2008, 16:00

The (not so) Perfect Blend

A couple of days ago, Matthieu Dallon voiced his opinion on whether there is going to be Defense of the Anicents at ESWC 2009. While the game wasn't picked in the first round, it was still something the organization had in mind. I have to ask the question; why?

For DotA to be a good choice for ESWC 2009, it has to evolve more in the coming six months than it has done in the last four years. The game has an intriguing mix of individual skill, tactics and teamwork, but falls apart in its complexity. In short, the game is great to play, but boring to watch.

Even experienced DotA players find it hard to sit and watch a single match from start to finish without their interest waning. The game is not defined by any certain happenings in that it doesn't have a structured build up. While games like World of Warcraft and to some extent Warcraft III lack the same kind of identifier, there is a clear-cut difference between them and DotA - time.

The length of a game of DotA can vary a lot, but most top-tier games go beyond the one hour mark. A non-structured game, with game time above an hour per map, in an environment that doesn't give outsiders a chance to understand the action - how does that sound for a spectator? In fact, you have to be a DotA player to understand a spectated game to its fullest.

Try to explain this scenery to an outsider? Forgetaboutit!

If this sounds like I am blowing the same horn as people critizising WoW, you couldn't be more right. There a not that many differences between the two games in terms of viewability, besides WoW is constant action, instead of farming.

No Sponsor value
While DotA certainly does cater to a large community, it comes across as an awkward mutant to both event organizers and eSports fans. It can't fit into tight schedules, it doesn't work well on TV and is too complex for outsiders to find it interesting. In short; there is no sponsor value in it besides what the community itself can digg up.

There are no fancy-pancy graphics in DotA, so nVIDIA can try to grab the players and convince them to buy their newest GPU for better performance. There is close to no spectators from outside the DotA-world present at the games, and you have to look really hard for the easy brandable and professional star-players in DotA.

Broadcasted live-games are maybe seen by a couple of thousands, but honestly - where is that going to count? The male CS Semi-finals in San José attracted more than 20,000 spectators online, and earlier editions of ESWC have seen up to 5,000 people watching the games live. That alone is more than you will get for a DotA-match.

If you add to this, that a large part of DotA's fanbase is situated in countries like Malaysia, China and Phillipines, you are going to have a rough time selling sponsorships to INTEL, SteelSeries - or anyone else for that matter.

Sure the numbers are fine. 5 million downloads of the map*. By those means, ESWC should include the 9 million StarCraft-players, the 50 million The Sims-players or the 3 million players that bought Red Alert. Numbers doesn't necessarily attract sponsorships, and frankly DotA, in its current state, is nowhere near its competitors in terms of viewability, accesability and useability.

So why include it in ESWC 2009?

*The total number of WarCraft III: The Frozen Throne-copies sold is estimated to be around 1,000,000.

Comments (153)

Page :

(3 months ago) #90 amimamimo

dota is boring to watch but fun to play !

(3 months ago) #91 MCCjerm

just remove observer wards to fix the game, or make it 200g per ward or something ridiculous, nerf the aoe site taht watchers and bats give. DONE!

(3 months ago) #92 MCCjerm

oh and remove crows ability to plant wards what a dumb idea

(3 months ago) #94 gatorade

has this clown even seen the difference in the number of downloads between dota replays and wc3 replays? lol.

(3 months ago) #115 myMYM\|GenoZStriker

There is a difference between having 4-5 major sites to download replays, then having your replays spread throughout +50 major websites. It's the reason you see +1000 downloads for a dota replay and only 300 downloads for a WC3 replays.

I do not know about you but recently there haven't been more +1000K downloads for dota, do you know why? That was because back then Garena used to fuck up the streams and people couldn't watch after 15 seconds so they have to wait for the game to end and thats where all your spectators instead of spectating the game had to wait for the game to end to download to the replay and watch. It's where you got your 1K downloads.

Second of all, There is no way you can compare the amounts of replay of dota to the amount of WC3, the difference is so goddamn big. Why do I mention that? You could have gone on a page and find a website come back 4 days later the same replay is there on the main page, why? because there hasn't been much going on that you find those replays and people download the ones they can find, same with the stream, I find week old dota stream on garena that have been almost at the same spot. One time I even saw a whole playday of PDL on the Garena list. While with WC3 a list of replays is most likely to be different everyday since games going on every day. You go to Waaaghtv and you will most likely not find the amount of games from the previous. Watching the amount of downloaded replays on a page proves nothing, not to mention that WC3 also include Video shoutcast and Audio shoutcast.

Now with the improvement of Garena dota does not get those +1000 often or at all.

And third, if there is a clan wars or a players match going on you can't just pick one replay and decide, hey it got that amount of download, no. You have to pick the replays of the whole clan wars MYM vs SK, to every single match-up and from players matchs replays of the whole match Grubby vs WhO, to count your downloads there.

Again you do not make your game look better, by saying that it's better then others. At the moment dota is getting close to where the community want's it to be. Being a reserved option at least says that the organizers are paying attention to it. Only the first set of games list was released and there is a chance dota can be included.

Last edited by GenoZStriker at 19.09.2008, 01:00

Enjoy playing dota? Check out Demigod at "Demigodthegame.com

(3 months ago) #137 Xhard

Awhbawhbawhbabahabwhabaaa . 300 downloads for wc3 . dream on . more like 30 . U Sir , fail

(3 months ago) #140 GenoZStriker

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Check Grubby vs WhO 200,300,300,400 DL on myMYM.com. Looks more like 30 dl to me. Dude u fail hard. ye dream on that. Even so buddy a replay distributed around 50 sites and 30 download each is still +1500 downloads. So thanks for the example.

Good to you know you could read the first part of my post, sadly where you decided to give up and comment on that. As if you have read further I explained the reason for WC3 having less downloads then Dota in replays. If the amount of replays is what makes a game better then Dota would have been where it wanted to be long ago, but sadly it's not. :D

Anyways I rest my case and your comment does really have anything to do with Phil article. Maybe you should try to find a way to help improve the dota scene rather then flaming other on forums.

PS. don't bother replying as I won't give you an answer back. Your post was more then enough for me to know who I am dealing with. Go improve dota. go go go go

Last edited by GenoZStriker at 20.09.2008, 14:57

Enjoy playing dota? Check out Demigod at "Demigodthegame.com

(3 months ago) #151 dmZNozG

many more ppl download dota replay then wc3. i dont tink can argue dis chek also other wc3 site very low dl. mymym is exampel dota replay here hav many more download then wc3. take look in ggtv of top of view. also her another exampel of known asia gamer site http://dota.sgamer.com/ chek numbers dl of newest dota replay http://war3.sgamer.com/ her is numbers dl of newest wc3 replay gg Last edited by NozG at 02.10.2008, 00:47

(3 months ago) #152 dmZNozG

many more ppl download dota replay then wc3 is fact . i dont tink can argue dis chek also other wc3 site very low dl .

mymym is exampel dota replay here hav many more download then wc3. take look in ggtv of top of view.

also her another exampel of known asia gamer site:

http://dota.sgamer.com/ chek numbers dl of newest dota replay
http://war3.sgamer.com/ her is numbers dl of newest wc3 replay

gg

(3 months ago) #153 myMYM\|GenoZStriker

Your kinda late regarding this. TBH :/ throwing me all this is really not going to do anything since I know dota has more replay then WC3 since the beginning of Dota in E-sport. ggtv is not the place for WC3 games as WTV is not the place to find dota games. :/ I think that there are more important things to worry about atm then downloads of replays and amount of viewers. Making the gameplay balanced and better for the community is what is important right now as players are obviously complaining about it. Good luck in your future matches and good luck in PD#11 Last edited by GenoZStriker at 02.10.2008, 00:59 Enjoy playing dota? Check out Demigod at "Demigodthegame.com

(3 months ago) #96 Say_Maki_Pls

I miss pro SandKing users... they're all gone =( You guys trying to say that "DotA is fun to play but boring to watch" Why not... Invite OPRAH, And interview those DotA players after every game. If you/they cant afford it, try calling Kris Aquino(Actress/TV Host from PH). She might help you. =) Is it true that DotA is much more active in SouthEast Asia than in NA+EU?

(3 months ago) #97 Say_Maki_Pls

"DotA is Developed by IceFrog, but the GamePlay was Developed by those UBER PRO PlayerS" -Ive read this quote in every articles same as this. Which means that late game VIRUS was made by Loda, Drayich, Maelk ect. forget Vigoss he didnt play much on this V-6.52e. The mentioned PRO players was watched by those trying hard amateurs like me and played pub game and there... the Late Game Virus runs in every DotA players brains. Curse you SUPER PRO DotA PlayerS... can teach me how to be pro? =) peace ^_^V

(3 months ago) #98 JustAVGn00b

dota stop being fun 2 play for me cuz only way u can win is by having some1 in ur team who is willing 2 spend 60mins of his life just going left 2 right and killing creeps and after 60mins press a on opponets base and go drink some water or smt.48b was more fun but mnore unbalanced etc..in order 2 do what this guy say 2 shorten the game u need 2 re-do basicly all heroes all units enitre gamestyle etc,so basicly change entire dota as we know....and i think any1 who played dota more then 5times would agree that is top5games ever cuz u have all in it solo,team play,flashy magics,tacticts variority and u don't need some great reflexes or microing 2 play dota on decent lvl that's why it's player-friendly.but watching and playing dota r 2 different things cuz 2 90min ricing heroes is boring(except for imba team fights) but playing dota is fun(as we all know).btw i think dota is only game that has 5mb and that has 5+mil online and lan players so that is smt?imo i think we should put 48b style back put rd as main style or bring back old dager give him higher price by900or smt and lower prce for dagon by 500 so ppl will gank more

(3 months ago) #103 Ghostdance

sighh..... Less QQ more PEWPEW for me Dota is something to Do with friends in-between classes and during downtime, but after reading half of this article, there is not to much to say but wow... (no reference to the money making machine) I have fiddled around with everything from mmo's to strats, fps... but the numerous repetitive bull **** from this is humorous, I had to post to a friend back in the states and yes my IQ does feel weakened by reading it. My 2 cents would be I normally never watch replays in my life but with me being on a train 4 hours a day I started downloading replays from dota and wc3.. honestly when I download dota replays its about 50% fast forwarding and wc3 tft I tend to watch the full thing... CS is a different story Im past those days, and moved on to the COD series but with the lack of players there was not much action until it was introduced to the console with the 4th installment of the series and Those replays (from a FPS and a WC3 player) are a lot more exciting to watch although the big battles in WC3 are also exciting but yes it takes a lot more brain power to understand the concept of what is going on. Different skills needed to play different games... I play COD4 with AOG on the MLG pro circuit/ladder ive tried my hardest to get decent at WC3 (but in all honestly I suck ass cause I am a daydreamer) and the length of the games takes patience. DOTA for me though is Very exciting to play especially with friends but without a decent ladder system its hard to get private matches unless you get lucky with all the leavers in pubs.. although the private games with the T_T crew (thanks for the games) changed my perspective of dota. anyways i really dont even know what the hell i typed lol but i gotta run to class now Peace GhostDance (on east coast and europe) pm me to catch some games I promise I will amuse you I have read all the dagger post, and the games with the old style where "hela" fun in pubs.. but made the competitive private play a lil edgy Last edited by Ghostdance at 18.09.2008, 13:02

(3 months ago) #104 CTS_Kamnik

Agreed with something like Drayich or Baja wrote. Make ban picks (without pause) last max 200 seconds with 20 seconds for each player to pick his hero. (would mean frenzy on ventrilo hehe) If someone is too late he gets a random hero. Bans can be kept at 4 per team... but make both teamleaders ban in 80 second time. So 10 seconds per ban allowed. (if you are too late a random hero gets banned) Also maybe shorten the game by 10 minutes on average and it is perfect. DOTA is an awsome and unique game; wouldnt want to change it too much just to make it more "noob-friendly to spectate". CTS - Carpal Tunnel Syndrome

(3 months ago) #105 TH4N4T0S

Perhaps Phil is right. DotA has its flaws, several flaws which make the game less spectated than other eSports like WC3, CS, WoW, and SC. But it also has many advantages which other games don't have. For instance, DotA requires massive skill, knowledge of the game, teamwork, and fast thinking; and these requirements are only a few of the many factors that make the game fun to play. Also, DotA delivers a great story that is largely manifested through the game's early, middle, and late phases through which heroes get stronger, towers fall apart, teams struggle for map control, strategies vary depending to the situation, and heroes help each other in a brilliantly coordinated fashion until one of the Ancients is destroyed. You see, DotA is an art. It goes through several processes and a story. One can do so much in it (creep pulling, double spawning neutrals, juking, and all the other subtleties and wonderful tricks the best pros had discovered). At best, it is a microcosm of an epic war between enthralling and legendary forces created by imagination. It's a psychological game like chess. But, like chess, it's a very complicated game. Very complicated, indeed. Maybe that's one of the reasons why DotA doesn't look so attractive to many. Perhaps its gameplay is amazing and topnotch, but it's hard to master and its current version is quite boring to watch. But see how the current version is called: 6.54b. It has numbers, a decimal point, and a letter. The fact that it is called a "version" means that there shall be more versions in the future. As Icefrog is developing the gameplay, the game's spectator aspect shall eventually come into place. I think Icefrog's intention was to make DotA fun to play, anyway. Yes, fun to PLAY. After the gameplay has been perfected or balanced, the development shall continue so that DotA can someday give the best kind of eSports entertainment to any spectator. What I'm saying is this: just wait and see. There shall be a 6.55 version soon. And we'll see 6.56, 6.90, 6.99b, and so on, until the numbers are dropped and the game shall only be called "DotA" - the perfected version. I'm not saying that this will definitely happen, but please be aware that the map is constantly and continuously being developed, and I think Icefrog is doing his best. DotA may have many flaws now, but I'd rather wait until it can only be described as the best and most profitable eSport there is...

(3 months ago) #106 pnGswe

The DotA version is not that bad.. you just have to give us shoutcasters some tools and I am sure that you will have thousands of people watching live and afterwards.

(3 months ago) #108 GWGkellyMILKIES

Are we still arguing about this? ku kub kubski ''>o</

(3 months ago) #109 imported_cychia

ya playing for 1 hour is fun but watching for 1 hour is really wasting the time!!!

(3 months ago) #110 -orochimaru-

is this going anywhere?

(3 months ago) #111 darkbeholder

lets switch back to action-packed-ganks of dota

(3 months ago) #114 Celly

#59, its dotasource.de since some month, I think hanni failed a bit ;)

(3 months ago) #131 MYM\|Mercy

Use the reply button or he probably wont ever see you answered him ;)

Knowing my destiny - Is accepting your defeat...

(3 months ago) #132 Celly

Seems like Hanni isnt the only one failing ;)

(3 months ago) #122 Galaxion_

DotA should be alive! DotA is a game that consist of 5 player, they need to train as hard as they could to have a good personal skills, farming skills, team working skills. It's hard to train these few things because it's full of mind game in there and without a good team play may causes you to lose game play with the others. It's unfair for those who spend alot of time for this game or some new team's who is training hard for this game for a higher achievement like ESWC. Spectators indeed important, but if all spectators went away to spectate The male CS, I will still sitting there alone to support DotA. No pain no gain, No game no fame!

(3 months ago) #129 zJones

Quoting Rinoa: That is an awful broad statement and it is purely your OPINION. You can see the length and farming w/e as a flaw probably because you're bad at it, but the length of DotA is a major reason why so many people love it, it's a challenge. Clearly the lack of skill of a player doesn't negatively affect his/her opinion about the length of the game and the farming involved. If it did i doubt you would be so passionate about dota.

(3 months ago) #130 CeDreamz

Hahahaha! People stop whining. The dead shall rise..

(3 months ago) #133 4KFLeatherface

whoever dont understand what dota is or how to play it pm me -_- ... :P 4K faiting!!!!!!!!!!!!

(3 months ago) #134 clusen

meh i wrote a big reply and deleted it :D in short: dota has nothing of a big esports-title and i just fail to see why the dota-com is so high and mighty about their beloved game in that case. the big esports-titles are easy accessible, the basics are small but as a player you can make extremely much out of it. q3 as the perfect example. without playing the game everyone can see whats going on, can feel the tension when killu and cypher are tied for the lead in overtime or can recognice a comeback without knowing the game in its depth. i have absolutely no doubt that the q3-event of eswc was the most entertaining to watch for anyone who doesnt play a specific game. without a big playerbase like all teamgames have by nature(like cs or dota, still more people play rt than solo @ bnet. guess why and why it doesnt matter that much for esports) same applies to some extend to sc and wc3. watching those games is as close to watching football or tennis as it can be atm without playing them. i do watch starcraft-streams atm without playing the game for years now, no problem to see whats going on - the game is made for esports, for all three sides(player, viewer, sponsors) the only "complex" thing about dota is teamplay, which is anything but unique to dota. take that away and the game is pretty nooby and boring. the game basics are too big(many heroes/items for example) and you cant make much out of them compared to how big the basics are. not much action in a very long time, no obvious skill for not integrated viewers, pretty hard to show/see the whole map and therefore all the action, i fail to see a point why i should watch dota if i dont play it. dota compared to sc is like nordic walking compared to football(no offense here, there is just no other mainstream-sport which isnt televised in a big way coming to my mind) i dont want to make dota bad, it may be the game with the most fun to play, but thats not the point of an esports-game. and i dont even want to start with marketing or the luck dota had concerning coverage compared to wc3 for example, there are many points where dota fails as an esports-game in my opinion. i neither love nor hate dota, i actually dont care about it, it can get millions of players - np. but pls dont try to push dota into something it isnt made for at the moment. Last edited by clusen at 20.09.2008, 03:33

(3 months ago) #138 vhallee

Quoting vladddi: A dumbed down game is attractive to a larger mass of users, where a complex strategical team game that does not emphasise simply on reactions is appealing to a much smaller group. maybe that's why dota has a huge fanbase? or CS? ;) anyways the thing is that dota is a failure from the spectator point of view and also from the competitive point of view. however, that does not mean it's not a fun game to play with friends at a LAN or something. it simply means that dota is nowhere near beaing considered eSports and that's not gonna change anytime soon. it's just a map not a standalone game ffs. btw i play dota from time to time too ;p I'll be nicer when you're smarter.

(3 months ago) #139 Popper

Quoting S0th: Apperently Trackmania has more creditability than DotA cough Great article though, thumbs up! ye big stupid thing lol, dota away better then tm, and i bet that like 90% of dota players never saw a lan game, lan game isnt boring. Member since : 04 Dec 05

(3 months ago) #141 frozensoul30

i like pie Join the DarkSide. We have cookies

(3 months ago)